Beginning a brand new profession is troublesome at any level in your life.
But it surely’s necessary to do not forget that it’s by no means too late to start out one thing new and comply with your desires.
Liz Cottam didn’t uncover her ardour for cooking till in a while in life, which led her to a whirlwind expertise on MasterChef.
Regardless of some blended emotions after her encounter with the present, she determined to ditch the company world and dive head first into the hospitality scene.
It wasn’t a transparent path for Liz, as she needed to discover ways to reject her fears of failure, change her views and lift sufficient funding for her restaurant, HOME.
Right here’s what we cowl:
Discovering your ardour in a while in life
Hello Liz. I’m so excited to have you ever right here. How are you doing?
I’m nice. It’s beautiful to fulfill you. I’m wanting ahead to speaking with you at the moment.
And your background is so stylish. I can see like 50 shades of black. Inform me about the place you’re sitting. What’s particular about the place we’re recording at the moment?
We’re recording from my restaurant, my flagship restaurant, HOME. It’s a theatre for my meals.
So, there’s tons and many texture. Nicely, there’s a lot of black, however we’re truly in a big spherical constructing with floor-to-ceiling home windows, so there’s a lot of stunning mild.
Yeah, it’s like my studio actually, it’s like my artistic place.
And I can’t wait to listen to the way you began constructing this nascent restaurant empire. However I needed to search out out first, how lengthy have you ever had a ardour for cooking?
Is it one thing that got here to you later in life or have you ever all the time been nuts about meals?
It undoubtedly got here later in life.
I simply ate to reside till I used to be about 20-21, after which I fell in love with cooking as a manner of entertaining and socialising.
I actually liked the creativity and what it regarded like and proper right down to the plate that it was on and the setting I used to be creating, I used to be all the time obsessive about the small print.
Yeah, I feel I fell in love with it late, however the writing was on the wall that this was in all probability, properly, a path for me that I used to be in all probability suited to.
Making a sustainable workforce
And discuss to me in regards to the crew, as a result of anybody who’s labored in eating places, hospitality is aware of there’s a excessive turnover of employees, often.
It may be actually tough to hold on to good folks.
So, how have you ever managed to search out such nice folks, such crew gamers and preserve them within the enterprise?
Yeah, I imply, I’ve bought a very stable, secure crew proper now, nevertheless it wasn’t like that to start with.
So, to start with, the crew had a small group of people that painted the partitions with me, they usually have been incredible and actually targeted. They weren’t probably the most skilled as a result of they have been all working in Michelin star eating places, after which we had this extra crew round us.
I simply needed all the pieces to be excellent, which is loopy, nevertheless it’s what a variety of cooks attempt to obtain. And I feel that’s why there’s so many loopy, drug-abusing cooks on the market, since you’re chasing an not possible dream.
And crazily, what we have been placing on the market was 90% good and there was this 10% that wasn’t proper.
I simply made the error the place I lived my total life fearful that the ten% was going to be the factor that put us out of enterprise, the factor that destroyed my dream.
So, I spent on a regular basis telling everyone what was improper.
However you’re taking a step again, and also you realise truly, 90% good is a large success, however I simply spent the entire time telling the crew how unhealthy we have been.
I used to be saying issues like, “This bit’s improper. This must be higher. Why did this occur?”
Slightly than, “Wow, take a look at what we’ve achieved and the way will we make this higher?”
It’s that flip and that unfavorable mindset was making everyone go away, as a result of the place’s the enjoyment in that?
And about eight months in, I’ve had a little bit of phrase with myself, and I used to be like, “This isn’t sustainable.” I wanted some assist.
And I realised that individuals have been leaving me, and I realised that life teaching and enterprise teaching, if it was the correct fashion, could possibly be the factor that I wanted.
After which, I found this glorious life teaching useful resource that has utterly remodeled not simply my enterprise profession, however my private life as properly.
Your tradition is what you tolerate
Are you able to simply give me one instance of a bit of recommendation or a very sensible manner of issues that you simply talked by way of together with your life coach, that modified your management fashion?
Is there one factor that stands out the place you have been like, bing, bing, bing, mild dawns, all the pieces is totally different now?
After the primary couple, I used to be like, “I’m undecided that is for me. I’m actually, actually undecided.” After which on the third session, unexpectedly one thing clicked, and I feel it was when she began speaking to me about dwelling in worry.
So, for the primary two or three classes, I didn’t actually perceive the subject of the dialog, however then it form of made sense by the third.
So, this dwelling within the 10% relatively than the 90% was as a result of that’s the place the issue was that worry of failure and that worry of the enterprise disappearing, that meant that I used to be dwelling in worry.
I used to be continually concentrating on all of the issues that would go improper relatively than concentrating on the issues that truly prevented the unhealthy issues from taking place, which was all the good things over right here.
As a result of a lot of issues have been taking place with the employees, as a result of we had this excessive turnover of employees, and he or she was instructing me about tradition and the way necessary the tradition was.
I used to be saying to her that my tradition was all about nurturing perception and creativity, however what I used to be delivering was one thing very, very, very totally different to that.
And in addition what I used to be tolerating was different folks within the enterprise that weren’t subscribing to that. One of many issues she mentioned was that, “Your tradition is what you tolerate.”
I used to be frightened of shedding a pair of fingers and holding on to those who have been at odds with what I used to be attempting to create.
I needed to be courageous, and I needed to shield what was necessary, and that was the tradition.
And in addition, I needed to begin actually strolling the stroll and being courageous sufficient to leap out of the worry, which was the shouting and the demanding and drawing everybody’s consideration to what was improper, and I needed to consider in the good things and consider in folks.
I really like that perspective the place tradition will not be like a poster on the wall saying, “Consider blah, blah, blah.”
It’s truly, tradition is what you tolerate. It’s virtually like what you enable to fester or foster in your enterprise. That will need to have been robust, however wow, what a outcome and what vindication for that technique.
Out of the company world and into the frying pan
However meals was not your career until, I imply, comparatively just lately.
Are you able to inform me what you have been doing as your profession beforehand? What path did you go down?
So, my profession began proper firstly of the web, and we didn’t have electronic mail addresses again then, no person knew what web sites have been, and we have been promoting web sites to the likes of Coopers & Lybrand earlier than it become PricewaterhouseCoopers, Ferrari, and Slush Pet.
We have been getting conversations with all of those folks as a result of there wasn’t anybody else asking to sit down down with them and discuss to them about this glorious new media.
On the finish of my profession, 21-22 years later, I used to be working with a variety of monetary establishments, banks, public sector organisations, the MOJ [Ministry of Justice], the MoD [Ministry of Defence], and with the BBC as properly.
I used to be accountable for digital transformation tasks of multi-million-pound quantities.
So yeah, it was very company, however I actually felt like I wanted extra creativity in my life, and I wasn’t getting that from the company world.
So, is that what led you to use to go on MasterChef?
You thought, “This’ll be an amazing artistic outlet. I’ll get to indulge my ardour, which is meals.”
What made you fill out that software and take a punt on that present?
It’s a little bit of an extended story, the entire path to MasterChef.
I used to be cooking for pals at weekends and doing my very own model of mini tasting menus for 10 to 12 of my favorite pals virtually each week. My husband was like, “It is a very costly pastime, entertaining all of our pals.”
I used to be additionally actually fortunate as a result of I had expense account.
So, midweek, I used to be going out to at least one, two, and three-star Michelin eating places and getting actually impressed for issues that I needed to attempt to try to recreate at dwelling.
I bought to a stage in my life the place I used to be comparatively, properly, very profitable, I suppose. You don’t like saying that about your self, however I feel I used to be, and I simply wasn’t feeling fulfilled, so I made a decision that I wanted to do one thing totally different.
I used to be pushing 40, and I simply needed the second a part of my life to feed me otherwise to the primary half. I additionally knew that if I did it half-heartedly, I in all probability wasn’t going to get anyplace quick.
So, I made a decision I used to be going to resign from my job and throw myself into the longer term and that’s precisely what I did.
At the moment, I used to be going again to my artistic route. So, once I left college, I went to artwork college and I liked portray and charcoal drawings, and I additionally liked pictures.
So, I picked up my digital camera, and I used to be simply going out, taking pictures issues that I liked and happening just a few pictures workshops with road photographers throughout the globe.
And on the similar time, some pals persuaded me over just a few bottles of Chardonnay, to place an software in to MasterChef. I used to be cooking for them midweek, they usually have been like, “You must do that.”
So, I did.
And it was very, very near the top of their software course of, however I’ve bought a telephone name from them and yeah, the remainder, properly, it’s not historical past as a result of we’re speaking about it, however yeah, on the again of that, I ended up auditioning and getting on the present.
I’m so shocked by the truth that you stop your job, you went two ft in. You weren’t similar to, “Oh, I’ll simply do a facet hustle or one thing.”
You have been like, “No, I’ve bought to attract a line underneath all the pieces that’s gone earlier than and begin once more.”
That’s superb. That takes braveness. However I suppose wanting again, was it insanity?
Have you learnt what? It’s actually unusual as a result of it didn’t really feel like I had a alternative.
I got here to this realisation that life is brief and clearly at 40 I knew I wasn’t getting any youthful and I simply had this inner, I suppose, stress to do one thing that I liked.
I suppose as properly, I did have the cushion of a husband who had an amazing job, and I had the cushion of getting profession.
So, financially, there was a little bit little bit of a consolation blanket there. There was a security internet.
I budgeted a time interval for myself to have the ability to go and discover, what subsequent? I don’t suppose I may have carried out it if I hadn’t been comparatively financially safe.
How a MasterChef expertise become an unlikely enterprise enterprise
No, that is smart.
After which, inform me in regards to the MasterChef expertise.
Yeah, it’s a lot extra intense than what you anticipate, and I feel it does job of exhibiting you ways hectic it’s by way of the edit whenever you watch it, however personally, for me, it was about one million occasions worse than something that I anticipated.
It was simply, I feel I put a variety of stress on myself as properly. I feel the mindset that I used to be in again then was, in case you’re going to do something, you must win.
It ended up spanning in all probability about eight or 9 weeks.
It was actually, actually exhausting. And then you definitely’ve additionally bought some regular life happening within the background as properly that you simply’re attempting to maintain on high of, and lots of people had full-time jobs, which they have been very, very nervous about leaving for therefore lengthy.
I feel my mindset the place the one possibility was to win simply created this extra layer of stress that wasn’t notably pleasant to play out actually.
Was there part of your mind that was like, “Oh, this could possibly be an amazing platform if I do wish to go and open a restaurant or develop into a meals entrepreneur afterwards.”?
Or was that like, it didn’t even happen to you?
Nicely, so that they ask you repeatedly on a regular basis about what you’re going to do together with your MasterChef expertise, they usually do ask if you wish to go into cooking as a career.
And I used to be like, “Hell no.”
However that’s it, you’ve bought to inform me, how did you go from, “I wouldn’t be seen useless beginning a restaurant,” to, “Hey, I’m going to open three.”?
Nicely, I hated the studio. I couldn’t stand the studio.
I used to be actually desirous to prepare dinner meals that I actually liked and that I used to be impressed by, which ordinarily took me three or 4 days of various preparations for various components.
So, as a substitute of placing a unique recipe collectively for TV, I simply was like, “No, I’ve bought to be genuine to myself and prepare dinner the kind of meals that I’m actually happy with.”
However that was clearly one other issue why there was a lot stress as a result of I used to be attempting to take action a lot. So, I actually didn’t benefit from the studio expertise in any respect.
Then, they put me into an expert kitchen, and I feel that is the purpose the place everybody actually (beep) their pants. And I went into this case, met all of the cooks and one thing simply clicked.
It was actually unusual, as a result of I’d had a lot anxiousness and I simply felt so like a fish out of water within the studio, after which all of the sudden I simply felt like I belonged there.
I keep in mind Greg coming over to me and saying, “That is unusual, that is the place we see folks lose it and freak out.” And he mentioned, “That is the calmest that I’ve seen you in the previous couple of weeks.”
And I used to be like, “Yeah, no, I’m actually wanting ahead to this.” And yeah, I did.
I liked the preparation, we spent all day truly getting ready all of the meals. I do know on tv you suppose that it’s all made for you or made simple, it’s simply not, it’s not like that in any respect.
So, we have been in there at 6.30 with the total crew on the restaurant that I went to, and we prepped all the pieces collectively, and I bought to know the crew, after which we have been planning service, and it simply felt actually, actually, actually good.
I feel I simply liked being a part of the pack and I feel I’m a pure pack animal, and there was simply one thing about that operating with wolves setting, the preparation for it after which the precise service, that it was only a actually, actually great expertise.
And yeah, clearly received that. I turned actually hooked on from the minute I skilled it.
These pop-ups that you simply did initially, did you simply go to those eating places, communicate to the chef, and say, “Can I do a takeover for a weekend?”? How did you handle to have these little take a look at beds?
What have been these conversations and the way did these pop-ups look?
I actually simply reached out on Twitter to native eating places, and it was the homeowners relatively than the cooks truly, and simply mentioned, “I’d love to return to your restaurant,” and such as you say, “do a takeover.”
I did a Friday and a Saturday evening on the first one after which a Saturday evening at the second.
And yeah, they have been actually receptive. I feel, MasterChef doesn’t create alternatives, however what it does will let you do is to knock on a door and get answered.
So, I feel, with the model of MasterChef behind me, once I approached these native eating places, they have been actually up for a little bit of PR and doing one thing totally different.
I feel whatever the degree of restaurant, there’s nonetheless a have to be artistic and I feel collaborations are actually thrilling methods to do one thing totally different, and I feel they recognise that.
Ask for assist and ask questions, it could possibly be life altering—and prevent cash
After which whenever you moved on to the residencies, that was when presumably you had a crew round you, and all the pieces clicked.
So, you weren’t by yourself attempting to do all the pieces your self, which was lonely and excessive stress, however you had the thrill of the crew, you had the thrill of truly creating, as you say, you’re a pack animal, creating that crew.
So, from these residencies, have been you want, “Proper, I’m prepared. I’m going to make the leap and do probably the most high-risk startup possible and open a restaurant.”?
I imply, so the residency lasted 4 months. I feel due to my company background.
I bought in contact with a billion-pound firm and spoke to the senior crew on the company business facet of the enterprise and simply mentioned, “Proper, I’m on the lookout for a disused restaurant, and I’m going to deliver you some PR, and I’ll offer you a share of the turnover.”
So, we discovered such a factor, which was an uncommon factor to have kicking round in a portfolio of companies, however they did have one in a resort.
I created a model, I created my menus. I went on the market and begged, borrowed, and stole employees, as a result of it wasn’t operating in a full-time capability, we have been open Friday, Saturday, Sunday.
So, I hustled, and I went to quite a lot of totally different eating places within the metropolis that I used to be often and ordinarily a visitor of and spoke to the chef and the entrance of home folks and mentioned, “Look, is there any manner you possibly can assist me?”
And are you aware what? It was completely superb, as a result of what they did was lend me glassware, cutlery, employees. I imply, you identify it. These folks have been simply so supportive.
It’s attention-grabbing that concept that, you don’t know till you ask, proper? However we very Britishly, very hardly ever put ourselves able the place we may ask an excessive amount of.
I feel this can be a actually necessary lesson that I’ve realized, is that you simply may ask 20 questions and the twenty first one is a sure, and it may be a life altering sure.
And that caught with me all over the final 5 years. That twenty first query has been such an necessary factor to get, to present me that additional impetus to maneuver ahead.
You may name it luck, however you must be courageous sufficient to ask, and you must be compelling sufficient with what you’re asking as properly.
And I’ve to say, Liz, oh my goodness, what an amazing technique to go, relatively than looking for a restaurant, and also you’re competing with different manufacturers, and also you’re looking for footfall, and also you’re going by way of all that palaver to go to an enormous firm and say, “Which property are you under-utilising? What properties have you ever bought that you simply’d wish to make a bit of cash on?”
That’s so sensible, as a result of then you definitely’re not competing with anybody, the stress is off, as a result of they’re already making zilch from that property and don’t know what to do with it. That’s actually sensible.
Thanks. Yeah, I imply, for me, it was all about minimising my publicity to long-term prices.
So, to enter a restaurant in Leeds, you’re a minimal of a 10-year lease or a 15-year lease with five-year breaks and issues like that.
However the concept behind the residency was that I wanted to see whether or not or I may do it. I wanted to see whether or not or not the market loved what I used to be doing on a bigger scale to the pop-ups.
I needed to be taught in regards to the enterprise and see whether or not or not I used to be actually minimize out to make the leap to do one thing long-term. And boy, did I take a look at my resolve of whether or not or not this was one thing I needed to do, as a result of all the pieces and something went improper.
I imply this disused restaurant, it was specified by Albert Roux, so it had probably the most superb tools, nevertheless it hadn’t been used for a very very long time and grease traps exploded mid-service. I didn’t even know what a grease lure was.
So, it was gruelling. It was like 12 to 14-hour days for almost all of the week and even longer on the Friday and Saturdays.
However in some way, I nonetheless needed to do it on the finish of this residency. I used to be like, “I’m actually, actually, actually not having fun with simply how exhausting that is, however I don’t wish to quit. That is undoubtedly the career for me.”
Suggestions and funding
And so, you got here out of this residency, you bought this superb expertise, which actually confirmed you the genuine facet of being a restaurateur and but you continue to needed to go forward.
So, then what was your subsequent transfer?
I had incredible suggestions from day one from everyone, and it was all the time absolutely booked. So, that was nice.
I knew that I wasn’t having fun with how exhausting issues have been, however whenever you break it down, operating a residency with a skeleton employees, the place you’re shouldering a lot of the work your self, I knew that I may management that.
And if I bought crew round me and was in a extra everlasting setting the place I may supply folks full-time jobs, I knew that I may take that down just a few notches. So, that instructed me that, if I’m nonetheless having fun with this like this, I could make it higher for myself. That is the correct path to be on.
The shoppers have been telling me how a lot they liked all the pieces that I used to be doing. So, market assessments for 4 months, that’s an enormous tick. Everybody was having fun with what I used to be placing down. They have been choosing it up and going, “Sure, we would like extra of this.”
And since we have been absolutely booked, the advertising and marketing engine, though it was very small and from a small dataset, it was rising and folks have been coming again, however then we have been promoting out each weekend, and we had some wait lists and issues like that happening as properly.
So yeah, so I knew the product was good.
I knew that I needed to do it irrespective of how exhausting it was, I used to be nonetheless wanting to try this, so I used to be satisfied of that. So, my subsequent step actually was to consider what this subsequent factor was going to be.
I had shaped a very good friendship with the pinnacle chef at The Field Tree, and he was on the lookout for one thing else at precisely the time that I got here to the top of the residency.
And he’d truly helped me out a little bit bit on his day without work, coming and giving me a push with preparation and sharing some recipes with me, exhibiting me learn how to type out the grease lure, issues like that.
We each loved the identical fashion of meals, we each had the identical work ethic. I used to be writing a marketing strategy, and I used to be what I wanted by way of talent set, and I used to be the place I needed to go by way of the positioning of the enterprise.
Though I used to be very proud of what I’d been placing out, I needed to do a lot increased finish meals and I needed the expertise to be the subsequent degree up from the place I used to be. So, I knew that I wanted some skilled folks on board to assist me try this.
So, I began to talk to Mark about him approaching board and in addition from his little black ebook, he had those who he’d labored with. So, what got here with somebody like that was a community that I presently didn’t have, coming from a unique business.
I put collectively a marketing strategy and as I used to be placing that collectively, as a result of the aim was to go and communicate to some excessive community people and see in the event that they needed to speculate, however my absolute, actual high precedence was attempting to get this funded independently.
So, I put collectively marketing strategy.
I secured Mark to return, not simply as an worker, however as a part of the enterprise in order that he had an funding in serving to me make this occur.
It wasn’t a wage factor the place he may hand his discover in and disappear in a single day, he was going to be locked into the enterprise with shares. I made a decision that was the correct method to go.
With that then went to the financial institution and requested them for the cash to start out the restaurant up.
So, what occurred, did you handle to boost finance from personal traders, or did you go along with the debt possibility, or did you find yourself placing all of your financial savings in?
What route got here good in the long run?
I principally went to the financial institution and instructed them how a lot cash I needed from them, they usually instructed me how a lot stake I wanted to boost.
At that time, I coppered up and had a take a look at how a lot cash I may elevate and sure, it was sufficient. It was sufficient to safe the funding from the financial institution.
There have been three or 4 personal people lined up. I had plan A, which was the financial institution and I had B, C, D and E.
In the event you take funding from an establishment aside from a financial institution or a person, then the rate of interest’s going to be increased as properly.
So sure, I needed management, nevertheless it additionally made good monetary sense to get the most cost effective cash potential, and that was undoubtedly from the financial institution.
One derelict constructing, two months and £310,000 later…
And might you inform me, how a lot does it value to open a superb eating restaurant? Are you able to give us a quantity?
Ooh, properly, I imply, what it’s value me to open the second incarnation of HOME is a hell of much more than what I managed to do it the primary time round.
The primary time, we took over an virtually derelict constructing, so there have been no electrical energy boards in there, the wiring wanted utterly redoing, there have been crumbling partitions. I imply, it was a little bit of a undertaking to say the least, however the lease was actually good.
So, £250,000 was the quantity that I raised to open the primary model of HOME after which the second is thrice that.
I feel on the finish of the day for me, I did a variety of the undertaking administration on the construct for the brand new restaurant as a result of I may, and that was a variety of money that we have been saving.
I additionally did this factor the place I went round looking for free cash.
So, doing offers with suppliers and permitting them to present me money upfront. So, along with the £250,000, I raised £30,000 value of provider contributions.
I additionally did a cope with the owner.
So, I took on this derelict constructing that was sat there for seven or eight years with out a tenant. I instructed him what I used to be going to do by way of enhancing the constructing and I bought him to throw £30,000 into the pot as properly.
That’s actually intelligent, simply all of the ways in which you may claw again funds simply by discovering partnerships and by making a kind of win-win offers the place somebody can’t say no.
I knew in regards to the partnerships, as a result of I noticed in your Instagram that you simply had takeovers and I feel there was a beer model, and also you have been posing, and I used to be like, “That’s sensible, as a result of that have to be sponsorship cash that’s coming in, and it’s a cool model and why not?”
Yeah, you possibly can develop into extra selective when you’ve bought a model, you’ve bought extra leverage.
However again within the day it was only a case of just about any provider that was going to present me some cash, I might contemplate taking it and stocking their merchandise.
And are you aware what? I imply, I’d do the identical factor once more. It was actually helpful.
They undoubtedly bought one thing out of it, such as you say, it was undoubtedly a win-win state of affairs, and I didn’t have an rate of interest to pay it again.
Nothing is ever totally free. Clearly, they’d factored in that money upfront into the costs we have been paying and what have you ever, nevertheless it simply was a really, very strategically necessary factor that we did to stockpile money in that manner.
And the way affected person did you must be? How lengthy is the method?
So, you discovered this derelict constructing, however what number of months was it earlier than you have been open, and also you have been earning profits?
Nicely, you’re going to suppose that is completely loopy, however we bought the keys on 8 June, and I opened the restaurant on 18 August.
Yeah, I do know. I do know.
Did you sleep in any respect throughout that point?
No. And sure, did I tile. I did certainly. Nicely, I imply we painted.
I imply, truthfully, it was simply full on and the crew that I pulled collectively for opening that restaurant, I used to be promoting this dream of making an exquisite setting for folks to work in and doing one thing necessary on the Leeds meals scene, hopefully on the UK scene, after which past.
I don’t know whether or not I’m a incredible salesperson or whether or not I used to be actually fortunate with the those who I met or a little bit of each, however these folks actually, actually, actually bought excited by what I used to be attempting to do.
After I say I used to be portray, and I used to be tiling, alongside me was this incredible crew of people that, actually three o’clock within the morning, we have been all, for weeks, not simply the one evening earlier than we opened, for weeks on finish, they have been slogging their guts out for my dream, which was so humbling.
It was superb.
Discovering a profession that feeds your soul
And Liz, only one last query.
You mentioned that after your 20-year profession in digital, you reached your restrict, and also you simply needed to do one thing in your forties that fed your soul and fed your ardour.
Do you are feeling like you have got achieved that as an entrepreneur and a serial restaurateur, are you there, are you feeding your soul?
Yeah, I’m undoubtedly feeding my soul.
I’ve this factor that I say, particularly to the individuals who got here to my unique pop-ups, who come to the restaurant now, and I say, “I’m the poorest, the tiredest, and the happiest I’ve ever been.”
It actually, actually, really is about, in case you love what you do, you by no means do a day’s work in your life.
And I really like what I do. I’ve bought a incredible crew round me, and we do issues with ardour and love, and my setting now’s certainly one of nurturing.
We haven’t misplaced anyone in three and a half years. We’ve bought a stable crew right here at HOME, and I’m simply loving what I do and who I do it with. What extra are you able to need?
Oh yeah. What stunning message and what an amazing place to finish the podcast.
No, thanks. It’s beautiful to talk to you.
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